Curse

the_jos · Jan 19, 2009, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athrun Feya

Why shouldn't the deep be able to be completed in 20minutes? Who sticks labels on elite areas and says "because i used a xxxxx build concept and got this time, any more than this is broken". Yes it did used to take longer, in NM, but people have been running the elite mission daily since then and as a consequence tactics have significantly improved and made way for the faster times. Had we known then what we know now, runs could have been just as fast a year or two ago (similar arguments can be used for DoA and Urgoz).

Consider how the deep build evolved. Go back to the time when steel wall had been established - there was NM and renewal nukers. With the introduction of NF these nukers quickly became Searing Flames, and shortly after people were attempting HM with just the same build as NM, eventually getting down to ~25minute with SF in HM. Not to mention everything moves faster in HM, so the dps of skills like SS rapidly increases and pulling time decreases.

If cryway were to be nerfed into oblivion, we would not go back to SF eles but look for another armour-ignoring alturnative. At the time, the effectiveness of an armour-ignoring spike was just unknown to the deep and therefore quicker times were not being achieved.

I know with knowledge and experience times were going down.
When I joined LotU back early 2007 they were very regular Deep players and I've seen times decrease. And in HM we were almost as fast as NM.
However, one of our main players quit GW and two others became more or less inactive due to their study, breaking our experience there.

When comparing the team to the old steel wall, the main change is swapping a tank for a nuker.
No problem for an experienced team who can block. And a nuker adds more damage.
Second, the mimicry mesmer can function as a second SS, which also adds damage.

We were able to play Deep in 45-60 mins early 2007, depending on the experience of the group and I can see that going down in time.
Even without PvE skills or consumables.

But look at the alternatives. FoC spike? Would work. RoJ? Probably works?
E-surge? Would work.
The bad part? Those are elite, so they can't take advantage of SoI.
The mimicri SS would not be as efficient, same for the MS and Deep Freeze.
Though the slow and KD would be the same, which is the main advantage of those.
If CoP would not exist in it's current form the team would need some reorganisation. Would it lower the times by much? I don't know.
It would probably put back experienced teams by 5-10 mins, less experienced teams somewhat more. Take out consumables for additional time penalty (casting, walking, skill loading would all be slower).

It's the combination of PvE skills, consumables and profession benefit's, combined with a decent team build, that make them overpowered.
It's impossible to say that only CoP needs a change or only consumables.
This however does not mean they are not overpowered, it only means it's hard to change them without keeping them overpowered or putting them out of the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athrun Feya

A lot of the decreases in run times are due to Shadow Forms maintainability - that's the real enemy here.

Oh, you won't hear me arguing on that one

Athrun Feya · Jan 19, 2009, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

But look at the alternatives. FoC spike? Would work. RoJ? Probably works?
E-surge? Would work.
The bad part? Those are elite, so they can't take advantage of SoI.
The mimicri SS would not be as efficient, same for the MS and Deep Freeze.
Though the slow and KD would be the same, which is the main advantage of those.
If CoP would not exist in it's current form the team would need some reorganisation. Would it lower the times by much? I don't know.
It would probably put back experienced teams by 5-10 mins, less experienced teams somewhat more. Take out consumables for additional time penalty (casting, walking, skill loading would all be slower).

Did you not read handy's post at all? This answers basically every point you make here (I was also involved in this run). Really shows the overpoweredness of cons actually too.

As a reminder:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akolo

To test if your theory was right, we decided to go do a deeprun, without pve skills(including Cry of Pain and SY)and Shadow Form whatsoever. We used a spike consisting of FoC, Esurge and RoJ. And this is our result:

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/g...uywd/gw427.jpg

I think almost everyone in that team took a screenshot if you want more proof.

I think this is kind of showing that Cry of Pain isnt really needed for a fast time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elentari

This is the entire build =]
http://gwshack.us/0a5db

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athrun Feya

Actually, from what we saw, Cry of Pain is completely replacable. The time was slower for different factors, namely
- lack of other pve skills, "you move like a dwarf" for knockdown and "i am unstoppable"
- no perma means we can't use exactly the same tactics as the record in later rooms
- we haven't run this build as many times, on a perfect run we would save an extra 2 or 3 mins.

Wubbies · Jan 21, 2009, 06:05 PM // 18:05

/yawn at this thread

TryingToVanquish · Jun 14, 2009, 12:55 AM // 00:55

I can't believe Shadow Form has still never been nerfed. Anet is actually encouraging us to only run assassins in elite area and finish it ridiculously fast? Same for CoP and RoJ.

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 14, 2009, 02:06 AM // 02:06

I think the issue here has been overlooked.

Player A killed themselves doing something hard. It becomes easier for someone else, thus their achievement now loses it's luster. Because no one knows that they did it the hard way.

What we're really talking about here is player ego. I'm a great, wonderful, skillful elite player. I can beat this area without a gimmick. I'm sure your parents are proud.

For the record, I don't use gimmick builds myself. I prefer balanced builds, because it's more fun for me. And I make my own builds, because for me, that's the fun of the game.

But as a game gets more players, more people want different things from it, and you know...there is NOTHING wrong with that.

It's called freedom. You're free to play your way, and Joe Schmoe is free to play his way. Unless Joe is a girl and then it's her way.

The bottom line is I play this game to have fun. I'm having fun.

Pretty simple, huh?

upier · Jun 14, 2009, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

That is all that is currently on my list. The reason I am making these suggestions is not only to promote team play, but to promote team work, strategy, and coordination. With these changes, elite areas and hard mode is going to be more of a challenge - just like they should be.

This is the original sin of this post.
When it comes to the biggest problems of PvE, we are not dealing with people playing PvE, but rather farming it.
And if the AI allows to be farmed - then we'll ALWAYS deal with these issues. Only the names of the perpetrators will change.

(When it comes to promoting multiplayer in PvE though - that ship has sailed. PvE in it's current state can not support it as the primary way of playing PvE. The game is just to big.)

pumpkin pie · Jun 15, 2009, 09:40 AM // 09:40

The 2 biggest problem with Arkantos' thread are:
1) After the suppose "Balancing of PvE" the game will still be "unbalance"
2) Wanting players to play according to a way a certain group of players think the game should be played.

I am not going to argue weather PvE should be balance or not, however I feel that the starting point of your thread is not to balance PvE, its mainly wanting people to conform to a certain way of playing as you see fit.

and I am here to say NO, because when Arena Net wants to nerf something, there's pretty much nothing a player like me can do to stop it, but I just want to say, I am against it.

Lastly stop messing with necromancer thank you very much and
/not sigined

Scary · Jun 15, 2009, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wubbies

/yawn at this thread

Thank you...

Men leave PvE alone.. stupid ballance proposals in PvE.
Just give us more PvE..Content what ever...if you want Ballance go PvP

Forgotton200 · Jun 15, 2009, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Signed for a nerf to Shadow Form, Ray of Judgment, and Cry of Pain. Elite areas shouldn't be so simple. I admit I'm abusing it as well because I won't be able to participate in elite area otherwise.

Also signed on the "Save yourselves" being based on Strength. Imbagon makes HM too easy. It's already easy as it is, no reason to make it even more brainless.

I don't like the look on the necromancer nerf, that's the only thing I'm against.

Test Me · Jun 17, 2009, 08:33 AM // 08:33

So none of this is really original heard it tons of times before but I wonder:

Do you guys go bored, like very very very bored and then the only option you see is to cry out for a change that would affect how other people play in a miserable way just to make you feel better and entertain you for a bit?

Because see, if *you* think all these things are overpowered and you got bored with the game and since you played it hundreds of times and got specialized and owned the game (which is normal) and didn't get any more content to challenge you, that certainly does not mean *all* of us are in the same situation.

So my proposal: instead of showing up here and crying for things to be changed that affect *all* people that play this game just because you somehow have the feeling/entitlement that this game is too easy given your play experience I suggest you:

- go and own DoA HM with 3 skill bars on all party members, of course not using necros and any of the skills you want killed

That should provide a challenge and would keep your mind off the "how to make other players suffer" subject.

When you've done that come back and cry for more things to do, I can come up with more for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

The next thing I would like to see changed is the necromancer. Currently people can roll through hard mode areas/missions easily with necro heroes. These builds do not in any way encourage playing with other players. In fact, these builds encourage you to play alone/with 1 person.

I am pretty sure many people are getting tired of the nerf stick and end up leaving the game. There are plenty of games out there that are not 5 years old. My point, if this shall happen I'll be one of those tired people that found better things to do.

So you're saying soul reaping encourage solo play and that is something we need to discourage given the currently active population of guild wars? Awesome. Have you ever wondered how deserted this game will be if even the players that prefer solo play will leave?

The only reason people still play GW after all this time is precisely because they *can* solo with h/h. There is no other option given the population available in outposts and etc.

So... go find your own challenges (like the 3 skills bars I mentioned) and please leave the other players alone, we're doing fine and haven't got bored of necro heroes or etc. Just stop trying to change how other people play this game, that is a big fail. If people can't play the game they want to and don't have fun playing it because of that, they quit and play something else. Period.

HuntMaster Avatar · Jun 17, 2009, 10:07 AM // 10:07

/notsigned.

People constantly insult others by saying, people in pugs are stupid, people in pugs are noobs. Then you want to force people to play with one of the two groups we see on a regular basis. The stupid pug group, or the superior jerk pug group. We can either play with noobs and fail all the time since noobs don't learn and won't listen, or we can play with skill nazi's who try to dictate what skills we use and what professions we play (or we don't get in the group).

You want to take fun skills that are optional and nerf them so they are no longer fun for the reasons they made us like them in the first place. You want to change the way they work because you feel they are overpowered because you've been on the game so long you know the metagame and the special "make HM into paper mode" builds. Effectivly removing any chance new players might ever have to try out these fun builds and skills.

Speaking completely honestly and personally, I find hard mode TOO hard. I do not research builds like most do. I do not have all the elite skills or normal skills like many do. I do not have access to the correct items/runes for my heroes like many do and I do not have a solo ecto farming build to make the massive money to buy all that like many do. I'm not the only one either.

Many of us don't "live" guildwars and analyze the game mechanics and metagame like some professional gamer. We pop on for a few hours a day and just mess around and have fun. Being able to solo farm for 1 hour and make a decent haul is the only thing that gives us a chance to buy the nicer items in the game. Otherwise we would be grinding monsters with henchies and heroes for weeks trying to earn enough to plat to buy just our materials while the uw/fow farmers who have been in the game since release make 50-100 ectos every few hours (if not hour).

Some of these skills give us a chance to enjoy hardmode or make alittle bit of plat. They do not effect/hurt other players in any way at all. Since people hate playing with random players anyways and choose to play with friends, what other people use, or how easy it is for them should not matter at all. We all have the same chance to do well with the skills we have. No one has any advantages over anyone except when it comes to practiced skill at the game.

If something makes the game too easy for you, instead of asking for it to be changed, just don't use it. Find a new build and post it, so someone else can complain about it being to powerful and nerf it (which is commonplace).

Is shadowform overpowered? Probably. Should we get rid of it? No. Because those who have been using it have already gained plenty and those of us who have not, missed out for using less gimmicky, overpowered builds. So the exploiters profit while the honest folks (unknowing folks) lose out.

(lets add this in so THESE people can get rich and then remove it before everyone can benefit) - Rigged and unfair.

So, as I understand where you are coming from, I do not agree with the idea. Its like removing zkeys and tournament points. Screws the new players.

Chieftain Heavyhand · Jun 17, 2009, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

/notsigned.

(lets add this in so THESE people can get rich and then remove it before everyone can benefit) - Rigged and unfair.

So, as I understand where you are coming from, I do not agree with the idea. Its like removing zkeys and tournament points. Screws the new players.

I have watched this over the years from the old Proph hunting areas to Ursan and now SF. The PvE balance crowd has screamed bloody murder over anything and everything till they get their way.

The thing is that most of these people caught on, came up with or were using the same skills they begged to have nerfed to get insanely rich or get through parts of the game and wanted the nerf bat to fall before the "noobs" caught on and did the same thing they were doing.

Are some of these players actually seeking PvE balance, I'm sure a few are but a majority of those who ask for nerfs in PvE are doing so to keep others from gaining the same things just like they did.

Ursan was getting out of hand and needed to be toned down, but honestly I think it would be nice for the new players to unnerf it for a few months then nerf it again or have a Ursan weekend where it is back to its former overpowered state so those who missed out on it can get a chance to abuse it just like the rest did.

There are those who would like nothing more than to have all PvE skills as well as consumables removed from the game, because the "noobs" are using them to achieve what they did without them.

I have to ask why can't you guys make your selves feel better because you didn't "have" to use them instead of asking for things to be taken away or nerfed into oblivion?

If you guys think these skills make things too easy then don't use them and when forming a group ask that they not be used, it is really just that simple. No one is forcing you to use these but you want to force others not to be able to, through asking for ridiculous nerfs that would cripple the skills or out right removal of things from the game.

Play how you want and don't worry about how others are playing, it is a game so what if some one is running UW in 3 min it affects me in the least because this is a game, I play for the enjoyment. It is not a job, and if the ability to achieve something in this or any other game is your only means of some misplace feeling of importance and others achieving the same thing some how challenges that then you need to seek professional help because it is just a game and that is a sad way to live your life.

/UNSIGNED

ajc2123 · Jun 17, 2009, 12:39 PM // 12:39

I don't mind the SF change I guess since I only used it for boss farming.

Save yourselves seems a bit rash. Since your limiting its usefulness with Warriors already why not just drop the Adrenaline and have them spam their 5 energy until their down to nothing. OR make it align with tactics, since it still requires point investment, and it promotes the tactics line. Looks more like an OP Watch yourself anyways.

Hell why not make it like a more powerful watch yourselves, where it ends in what...10 attacks or so? I dunno...I just hate to see it put THAT much hate on it.

Soul reaping bugged me the way you put it. I understand it being the best E Management in the game, but can't we do somehting like scale the energy gain not ONLY with amount put into it, but with how many necromancer skills on the bar there is? That way N/Rt N/Mo loose their FULL ability to heal, but can still support (maybe aegis, protective was kaoli, pure was meling kinda stuff) but run necro bars?

I've been thinking about cry of pain. Since my Mesmer doesn't actually use it, I was thinking, Why not make it EXACTLY like cry of frustration, but with energy gain? Kinda like Tease but since every foe is interrupted, you gain energy automatically. Drop damage down to 47ish max rank, energy to 5, recharge to 20? Interrupt every foe in the area of your target and deal 5...47 damage to each of them. For every foe affected you gain 0...2 energy.

Racthoh · Jun 17, 2009, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Predictability and unbalanced enemy groups will always be the bane of having an enjoyable PvE environment. Hard Mode stops being hard when you realize Protective Spirit still exists and Broad Head Arrow still inflicts Dazed. The same tried and true tactics of Normal Mode work on Hard Mode, the only difference being one mode will take longer because the enemies are given more health. Without a redesign of enemy AI or challenging skillbars to deal with there will never be the same level of enjoyment that there once was.

Slaver's Exile is the closest thing we'll ever have. Charr a distant second because those idiots would ball up for AoEs.

A bigger impact on the listed skills would be more noticeable if the enemies consistently had ways to deal with them and mobs were random. Except Cry of Pain and Shadowform; Izzy, seriously.

Doc Zenith · Jun 17, 2009, 03:42 PM // 15:42

/signed Just need SF Nerf badly for starters..Urgoz warren in Hm 20 minutes or Hm dungeon in 10..thats Just RIDICULOUS!!

Symeon · Jun 17, 2009, 04:44 PM // 16:44

I agree with all Arkantos' suggestions, except for SY. There are no other skills that cost both adrenaline and energy. Just make it require slightly more adrenaline (10 or 12).

I'll be honest, I would like to see these 'crutches' removed so that Hard Mode and Elite Areas are somewhat challenging again. However, the real reasons I want them nerfed are as follows:

Shadow Form: Because I hate seeing at least one assassin with chaos gloves in every outpost I visit, or going to ToA and seeing hundreds of them. Nerf SF and they will all be worthless.
Cry of Pain: Because [agro] are/were bad.
Save Yourselves: Because the hordes that would cry on Guru if the other stuff here was nerfed would actually have an argument if this was left alone.
Ray of Judgement: Not in this thread but I'll mention it as well - because monks are the only profession other than assassins that I see in ToA, and while P-Draining idiots who repeatedly spawn and run towards shrines just to cast one spell in JQ is fun, there are often just too many of them. (JQ also needs some other tweaks to stop N/A bombers and the like, but that's another topic.)
Soul Reaping: So there is another 150-page bawwwwwwwfest in Riverside.
Consumables: WTS CONSETS 7K EA

Targren · Jun 17, 2009, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symeon

Shadow Form: Because I hate seeing at least one assassin with chaos gloves in every outpost I visit, or going to ToA and seeing hundreds of them. Nerf SF and they will all be worthless.

It offends your e-peen, so make an entire class useless (we already have Rit primaries filling that niche)

Quote:

Cry of Pain: Because [agro] are/were bad.

Nerf a skill because you don't like a group that uses it?

Quote:

Save Yourselves: Because the hordes that would cry on Guru if the other stuff here was nerfed would actually have an argument if this was left alone.

Circular Meta-logic. Nice.

Quote:

Ray of Judgement: Not in this thread but I'll mention it as well - because monks are the only profession other than assassins that I see in ToA,

See Shadow form.

Quote:

Soul Reaping: So there is another 150-page bawwwwwwwfest in Riverside.

*facepalm*

Quote:

Consumables: WTS CONSETS 7K EA

So make em, sell 'em for 6k, and clean up.

I *really* hope you were being ironic

Kattar · Jun 17, 2009, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

I *really* hope you were being ironic

He wasn't being ironic.

He was being sarcastic.

reaper with no name · Jun 17, 2009, 05:24 PM // 17:24

I think an issue some people are missing is that leaving overpowered skills overpowered does not leave more freedom in the game. It leaves less, because there aren't as many viable build alternatives. If you're not using the overpowered builds, you're gimping yourself. That''s why overpowered things get nerfed. It's always been the reason Anet does it; to open more build options and keep things fair for people who decide not to use the overpowered stuff.

There's also a big difference between nerfing skills into uselessness and bringing them into line with other skills. Admittedly, Anet doesn't tend to realize this, but that's beside the point.

I myself happen to be in the "balance PvE" camp, and the only farming I have done is faction-based. However, it seems to me that if farming gold/faction/ectos takes so long that overpowered farming builds are necessary, then those imbalances are a symptom of a problem; not a solution. They're no excuse to allow overpowered stuff in the game. You don't solve one problem by introducing another. The same goes for overpowered builds in HM (admittedly, I haven't gotten around to this either, yet).

Kendel · Jun 17, 2009, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Save Yourselves should be left alone tbh. If you really do suck you then SY won't save you. It just lets you run a wider range of builds in HM because you don't have to revolve everything around luring/balling and the like.

Cry of Pain has NOTHING to do with being a mesmer. Wtf is it nothing like Cry of Frustration for. Personally i think it should be made to:

Deal x damage and interrupt target foe, if you interrupt a skill, deal x damage to all foes in the area (possibly with an AoE interrupt too).

That way you remove its 'Mesmer Hex' requirement. You can fire it off at will for single target damage or you could actually learn to interrupt and cause Area damage. It stops it being spammed as a massive AoE spike skill. To compensate for the change you could add the AoE interrupt.